From Gary Peters, another guest article, this time in response to the current world food crisis.
Below is Hunger Hypocrites, an article from Le Monde, short but worth looking at:
Hunger riots having erupted on the television news, it’s time for mobilization. From Paris to Washington, everyone has their own idea about how to come to the aid of poor countries’ populations unable to withstand the price increases in basic foodstuffs, notably rice. We can only commend this surge of generosity. To fail to respond would be criminal and would provide a very tarnished image of the West.
Nonetheless, how is it possible not to feel ill at ease with these tender impulses? For those who are the most generous today are those perhaps the most responsible for this planetary malfunction. The new eating habits of emerging countries, largely imported from developed countries, explain a large part of the explosion in demand and consequently price tensions.
That’s not the only reason. Biofuel competition is another, essential, cause. Now, the United States – so generous with the World Food Program – has confirmed its resolve to double the already-very-significant surface it devotes to biofuels. Opposite the American driver, the Haitian peasant doesn’t carry much weight. The same is true for Europe. Not only does it want to develop biofuels, but in international negotiations, it maintains a protectionist policy that has long destabilized third-world agriculture and slowed down poverty reduction.
The responsibility of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund is also considerable. For decades, these institutions have explained to emerging countries that the future of agriculture was behind it. So, emerging countries favored export crops in order to bring in foreign currency; they are harvesting the bitter fruits of that policy today. Thus does Senegal export food products – which Europe taxes when Senegal has the gall to want to process them domestically – but has to import 80 percent of the rice it consumes. Now not only has rice become scarce, but speculators are making its price climb as much as 30 percent in a day. The West’s sudden generosity cannot erase its share of responsibility for the major crisis that threatens today.
Consider the last sentence, “The West’s sudden generosity cannot erase its share of responsibility for the major crisis that threatens today.” Maybe it is just me, but that sentence seems to have implications far beyond the current hunger crisis that is sweeping the globe.
Since at least 1492, the West has been affecting, often negatively, life in the rest of the world. One of the West’s great contributions to the Americas, for example, was widespread disease and death, though it took a long time for us to admit that. Expansionist policies have long taken the West into other lands, mainly to extract resources and to dominate local cultures and peoples. We encouraged others to “develop” along with us, but seldom made it easy for them or created the “equal playing fields” that were so fond of talking about, even as we avoid them when they might do us harm.
Today it is food, but tomorrow what else? Fossil fuels, especially oil, have provided the means for a steady growth of people and affluence during the last 200 years or so, but that growth has, despite its promise, remained vastly different for different peoples and regions. Some aspects of the West have certainly “trickled down” to the poor countries, including some public health measures and medicines that helped bring mortality downward, sometimes quickly. However, until much more recently at least, fertility remained high throughout much of the Third World, leaving it with rapidly growing populations and locking it into often unequal economic relationships with the West.
Right now, as Earth Day approaches, we have reached a point that I’ve not seen before, one in which we are directly using a growing portion of Earth’s food supply to feed hungry vehicles rather than empty stomachs. At least temporarily we are feeding our own addiction to oil and fossil fuels at the expense of those who remain for the most part in a very uneven relationship with us, driving food prices up everywhere in the process. Westerners may seem generous as they try to help the suffering poor of the world, but seldom do we connect the dots in such a way that we see that population as in part our own creation. Vast agricultural subsidies in the U.S. and the E.U. turn trade terms against most poor nations. For example, in the U.S. we subsidize vast acreages of cotton in California and elsewhere, even though it would make much more sense not to do that and to import cotton from producers in Asia and Africa instead. All of us would be better off except a few wealthy landowners and their political lackeys.
The West largely does the same with energy, subsidizing local production of fossil fuels and doing what we can to take what we need from the rest of the world, preferably paying as little as possible. Before the 1970s and OPEC this worked fairly well for us and for a few wealthy Middle Easterners as well. However, population growth in the Middle East, the rise of OPEC, and now the sudden “Westernization” of China and India in economic terms have left the world facing some energy problems that are not new but are now occurring on a much larger scale. One result is rapidly rising energy prices; another is rapidly rising food prices; yet another is rapidly rising CO2 and CH4 concentrations in Earth’s lower atmosphere. There are many more, but most suggest to me that the great era of Western dominance may be slowly unraveling, but it will not end without considerable struggle, and the price will be paid, as always, by those who can least afford it.
Yes, we are responsible for a lot of shit. Yes, we are guilty.
Now, what shall we do about it?
I’m Jewish, not Catholic, so for me acknowledging responsibility is simply the first step, and restitution for things must be made by me in this world.
So, what shall we do about it?
I believe there are solutions. Problems of “will” are much greater than those of figuring out “way.” Yes, we need to connect some big dots. And, there is much truth to what Heraclitus said over 2,400 years ago: “Character is destiny.”
I’m going to agree with Jeff and say that a large part of the problem is not finding a solution, but rather creating a desire in the West to start making changes in our culture and lifestyle so that we are not living in abudance at the expense of the rest of the world.
Awhile back I posted a link on a non-political forum that I got from Wann’s “Simple Prosperity” http://www.globalrichlist.com/ which will show you how rich you are compared to the rest of the world. One of the most interesting response I got was “This is a crock. Some stupid tool Marxists devised to justify their desire to redistribute wealth. Go pound sand, commies!” Sounds like America is really feeling the “Rich Man’s Burden.”
A CLARION CALL FOR CLIMATE ACTION
Press release19-04-2008
Fisher people demand justice for climate refugees
South Indian fishing community conference on Climate change and
Fisherpeople’s livelihood was held on 17th April 2008 at Rotary Community
hall,Nagercoil, Kanyakumari district. This event was organized by
TamilnaduFisher workers Union (TFU), Kerala Independent Fish workers
Federation(KSMTF) and Voices from the Margins (VFM).
Mr. T. Peter Dass, President,Tamilnadu Fish workers Union (TFU) delivered
welcome address and he pointed out that fisher people are facing sea erosion
as a result ofclimate change. This public event is recognized as the first
one organized by the affected community against Climate Change and fisher
people have decided to launch public protest for their sufferings as a
result ofclimate change.
Mr.M.Pakkirisamy, district revenue officer inaugurated this workshop and in
his Chief Guest address said that sea level is rising in the last pastdecade
at an unimaginable rate of increase. Sea level is expected raise 5 meters in
the next 50 years and it is going to affect the fisher people.There is a
need to change the consumption pattern to avoid the expansion of the hole in
ozone layer.
Mr. K.P. Sasi, activist film maker wondered what the government is doing to
stop the carbon emission? There is a need to change the production process
of the industries, agriculture and the energy systems. Nothing is done so
far to the people affected by climate change and marginalized people who are
becoming refugees as a result of ecological impacts thrustupon them.
Dr. A.D.Shobana Raj, ecological researcher highlighted the factthat the
coastal Kanyakumari district has 56 km long coast with apopulation density
of 1500 per sq.km; and the coast line is vanishing. 80% of the water
resources in the coastal area have become saline and peopleare facing water
crisis because of the intrusion of sea water. 132 coastal sea weeds have
disappeared in the last 10 years. If the global temperature rises 2 degree
Celsius then it will have impact on micro organisms leadingto several
contagious diseases affecting coastal people.
Dr. S.P.Udayakumar social activist demanded that our energy consumption
pattern should change. The solution for climate change lies in shifting our
energy sector from fossil fuel dependent sector to renewable energy. Our
transportation pattern should move towards effective and efficientpublic
transport system rather than promoting cars which will lead toincrease in
carbon emission and vehicular pollution.
Mr. Sathya Sivaraman,journalist & film maker stressed the need to pinpoint
who emits more carbon and who should pay for carbon credit. USA is
responsible for 25% ofcarbon emission and it should take the responsibility
in compensation to the victims of carbon emission and climate change. The
relationship of Human species to Earth should be the equivalent to child and
mother, but this species has taken up the role of the destroyer of the earth
and other species. Carbon emitting industries should be changed and if this
is not possible all such industries should be closed.
After the people’s response, Mr. T.Peter president KSMTF demanded that
chemical farming practices, polluting industries and carbon emitting
lifestyle should be stopped since the fisher people are the most affected
bythe climate change. Today, this public event is organized with the
conviction that the affected communities can not remain in halls but there
is a need to launch mass public protest not just for their survival alonebut
for the entire humanity locally, nationally and internationally.
In the concluding session Mr. S.M.Prithiviraj, Convener, Voices from the
Margins explained how the marginalized farmers of the Tamilnadu are affected
by climate change in recent heavy rains as a result unusual low pressure in
Arabian Sea. Fisher people are affected by changes in pattern of fish catch,
reduction in fish wealth, and loss of working days as a result of climate
change and tidal waves and their houses are washed away by intruding sea in
many places of South India. Why should the fisherpeople pay for the impacts
of climate change entirely created by other vested interests? The conference
ended with a resolution questioning the polluting industries, chemical
farming practices, non-renewable energy sectors,carbon emitting life style
and the need for taxing the polluters to paythe price for ecologically
affected fisher people and other marginalized communities.
Press release issued byTamilnadu Fisher workers Union (TFU)
Ph:09443294198
Kerala Independent Fish workers Federation (KSMTF)
Ph:09447429243and
Voices from the Margins
(VFM)Ph:09843080963____________________________________
Hmmmm.
1. You folks were the ones screaming endlessly about carbon and how evil petro-fuels were.
2. You people were the ones pushing for ethanol production.
3. You people were the ones who halted the construction of nuclear power plants and thus completely destroyed any possibility of shifting to electric vehicles.
What? Never thought of that? We’ve got 40+ million cars in the USA. If they were all electric just how many *hundreds of gigawatts* would be required to recharge them each and every night?
What? You think tidal power would’ve done it?
4. “… One of the West’s great contributions to the Americas, for example, was widespread disease and death, though it took a long time for us to admit that. …”
And the rest of the world got syphilis from the Americas, not China as it was originally thought.
What? You think the Americas were a pristine heaven without any diseases whatsoever?
5. “… For those who are the most generous today are those perhaps the most responsible for this planetary malfunction. …”
So you’re saying that the West is responsible for Zimbabwe?
The fact is that every single place you find hunger today you’ll find a disfunctional government based on either a dictatorship, socialism or communism. All three are the beloved types of governments by progressives.
Capitalism, which is the only type of government that has ever successfully fed anybody, is always declaimed as evil.
So why can’t these countries feed themselves? It’s not the West that is at fault.
6. “The West largely does the same with energy, subsidizing local production of fossil fuels and doing what we can to take what we need from the rest of the world, preferably paying as little as possible.”
And when you go to buy groceries do you voluntarily pay double the price?
Berating people for paying the minimum asking price is frankly idiotic.
7. “Westerners may seem generous as they try to help the suffering poor of the world, but seldom do we connect the dots in such a way that we see that population as in part our own creation.”
Complete and utter bullshit.
The West is the ONLY people on the planet that actually give a fuck about anybody else.
You think China gives a rat’s ass about anybody?
Who put billions on the line during the Boxing Day Tsunami?
Only Western countries.
Even the Palestinians depend almost entirely on the goodwill and handouts from the West.
…
Seriously. The muddle-headed nonsense you guys spout is frankly atrocious.
We’re responsible? Fuck no.
The people responsible are those governing these corrupt and dysfunctional nations.
And those who excuse that irresponsibility by blaming the West.
Hmmmm
“Sea level is expected raise 5 meters in
the next 50 years and it is going to affect the fisher people.”
Good God! What imbecilic tripe.
5 meters?
No what’s actually happening there is probably what’s happening in many other places:
Higher population requires more water pumped out of the underground fresh water supply, this causes the ground to *sink*.
…
Funny how China has already passed America as the world’s #1 emitter of carbon but nobody is even thinking of trying to weasel money out of them.
Kyle, Jeff, JenRob, Steve, thanks for adding your voices. What struck me most about Gary’s article was the importance of presenting all the dots, and of connecting them in a clear manner, so that people can become more conscious.
Kyle, as you wrote in one of your earlier emails to me, most of the times, people are not aware. This includes people in position of power.
Part of the challenge involves making simple what has become very complicated. There are too many dots!
Regarding “memomachine”‘s post #5,
I’ll only make once comment: In response to memomachine’s point number 5, capitalism is not a “type of government.”
Marguerite, regarding your post #7, I agree that part of the challenge involves making simple what has already become complicated. And, I agree that there are lots of dots, especially in the way the media currently cover the matter. But, I think the “macro” story, and key parts of the story, can be told (accurately) in ways that are fairly simple, connected, and coherent. (I’m not sure why it’s not being done?) If we or you or I could “connect” with someone who could fund some media, there are ways to tell the story simply. The way it’s currently being done in the media is (very often) overly fragmented, schizophrenic, inaccurate, complex, and etc.
Cheers for now.
Jeff, how about we start here? Do you think you could write up a simple story line?
[…] the Internet, It’s All About ‘My’‘‘, took me straight to the current world food crisis. Particularly troubling, are the following […]
Marguerite, regarding your questions in post #10: Sure, that would be fine.
A question for you: What would be the best approach in terms of format and sending it to you? The best way to convey the “story” (for current purposes) would be in very short installments or parts. Each one might be just one or two paragraphs long, if that. So, one way would be for me to write the whole thing up and send it to you in a MWord file, if you like. Or, another way would be for me to send you a short installment (for posting if you like) every couple days or so. Or, if you have other ideas, please let me know.
I think the second approach might be more interesting and fun. But, either way would be fine. (If you want the whole thing at one time, it’ll take me a couple weeks, given my schedule.) And, if you want one short installment at a time, I’d be happy to send photos to accompany some of them.
What would work best for you?
Cheers.
Marguerite, I don’t think it’s really that things are complicated and need to be made simple. Rather I think it’s just that people are accustomed to a certain way of life and way of thinking, and can’t imagine anything different. Consider this article about the Energy Information Administration. They base their forecasts of future energy production on… demand. That is, if people demand more oil, they’ll get more oil.
She writes, “I think in general the economists have had a big influence on thinking. (I don’t know of this is true at the EIA, but it is in general.) The view is that if the economic stimulus is there, suddenly the oil will appear. Technology can fix anything. Scientific American and other science publications have encouraged this thinking as well. The apparent unanimity in the press has lead a lot of people astray.”
In other words, their view is not based on either complex or simple ideas, but faith. They believe in The Market! and Science!
In essence, none of the problems we face are particularly complex in their nature: finite resources can only be extracted at a certain rate, the Earth has a delicate balance of things in its system and we can upset that balance by our actions, and so on. But like a medieval peasant facing poverty and death and turning to the hope of paradise hereafter, these people faced with the finite and fragile Earth turn to The Market! and Science!
What we are trying to do is destroy their faith. People resist that. If they don’t understand what we’re saying, it’s not because they’re stupid or we’re describing it in complex terms. It’s because it contradicts their fundamental faith. That’s why we get these semi-coherent denialist rants – try destroying the faith of an evangelist Christian and you’ll get semi-coherent rants, too.
Hmmmm.
“8 Jeff Huggins
Regarding “memomachine”’s post #5,
I’ll only make once comment: In response to memomachine’s point number 5, capitalism is not a “type of government.””
“American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition”
“capitalism”
“An economic and political system characterized by a free market for goods and services and private control of production and consumption. (Compare socialism and communism.)”
Kyle,
I agree with you that what needs to take place is a whole new way of thinking, feeling, and acting, based on a different set of values. From ruthlessness to respect, and from alienation to love, between people and towards nature. Which raises a question we have asked here before. How does one change values?
Where education has its place is in helping shed a bit of light on some dark corners in the collective consciousness. I am not an educator, but I do believe that there is some work to be done there. Thanks, Jeff.
“How does one change values?”
With crises.
Basically no-one changes unless they see the need for a change. If I’m alcoholic and employed and my marriage is going well, there’s not much incentive for me to give it up. But if I lose my job, lose my wife and children and end up on the street, I may decide it’s time to reassess things. The need comes from the old values plainly not working any more. “Hmmm, I guess that didn’t work, let’s try something else.”
A change in values of a society comes in response to a crisis in that society. It can be an internal crisis, like the corruption of the Church around 1500 in Europe (giving us the Reformation), or the civil wars of the 3rd-4th century Roman empire (giving us Christianity as a state-sponsored religion). Or it can be an external crisis, like the invasion of Russia by Germany in the Great War.
Crises give us a change in values, but if the values can’t change quickly enough then there’s a collapse. So for example the USSR in the 1980s suffered an economic and food crisis (described by a former Russian PM here), as well as an external military crisis, and Gorbachev tried to change the country’s values with perestroika and so on. But there was a lot of resistance to change, or at least his particular changes, and this gave them a collapse. They were changing direction, but not fast enough, and like a car going too fast on a hairpin turn, skidded off the road.
On the other hand, the internal crisis of the US in the 1950s and 1960s gave rise to productive change in the form of desegregation and LBJ’s Great Society, when it could just as easily have led to a collapse of the United States. MLK, Eisenhower and LBJ all offered the country new values. They were able to present these new values as a natural development of the old ones, “all men are created equal” and so on.
So perhaps the lesson is that it’s easiest to give people new values when they can be presented as a return to older values. For our particular concerns about the fossil fuel and greenhouse gases crises, you see that a lot with people like Sharon Astyk, presenting the solution as a return to the tradition of the American homestead, setting aside the more recent image of the American home in the burbs.
The question is, do we face crises which require new values? I think we do, in the form of resource depletion and climate change. Will the crises be too fast or too slow for us? It’s all a delicate balance, really. If the crises come on too quickly then the change in values can’t be quick enough and we get collapse. If the crises come on slowly then most people won’t see the need for change.
So all we can do is wait for the crises to become apparent to everyone, calmly putting forward our different values as a substitute.
I wish I could remember where I read it, but someone wrote about how even in the darkest and most miserable times and places people are planning for a better future. There’s some Palestinian sitting behind the Israeli wall writing up a joint constitution, there’s some Iraqi drawing plans for an eco-village, there’s some Pakistani thinking about a joint currency with India, and so on. And all these people with all their plans and ideas just need a chance to step forward. They need the right time.
It’s somewhat the same with changes in values. We just need the right time. And we need some patience. As I’ve said before, good change always seems painfully slow, and bad change frighteningly fast. I’ve no doubt that whether it works out or there’s a collapse, people will look back and say, “but it was so obvious the way we were going, why couldn’t they see?”
I agree with Kiashu about the faith that people have in modern economics and technology, a faith that may have served the West well over the past two hundred years but which may now be leading us down some undesirable paths.
Memomachine appears to be the perfect example of someone who doesn’t want to part with that faith in economics. Here is just one example. Memomachine wrote that “Berating people for paying the minimum asking price is frankly idiotic.” He/she misses the point–if that minimum asking price is based on production costs that do not internalize the “real” costs of production, then the minimum asking price is too low, leaving the cost of externalities (e.g. CO2) to fall on the rest of us.
I have argued before that modern neoclassical economics, with its denial of any limits to growth, has led us down a primrose path, and now the going is getting tougher. Thanks to our rapid and vast exploitation of fossil fuels, especially petroleum and its many products, we have seen an unprecedented growth in the world’s population, from only one billion around 1830 to nearly 6.7 billion today.
That growth has taken place because fossil fuels allowed us to expand Earth’s carrying capacity at a rate that would have been unthinkable before 1800, as Malthus certainly noted in his 1798 essay on population. Today, however, the world looks different than it has in recent decades. Oil prices, and most other energy prices as well, have spiked in recent years, at least in part because real scarcities are occurring. Energy prices are affecting world food prices, leading to what might be a real decrease in Earth’s carrying capacity, unless we can find ways to again increase food production without sending that food to SUVs.
Kenneth Boulding, an iconoclastic economist, once wrote that “Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist.” Modern economics has estolled the virtues of growth above all else, and has showed little concern with fairness.
Americans talk about fairness, equal playing fields, etc., but they are perfectly happy to live in a nation with less than 5% of the world’s people, yet consume 25% or more of the world’s energy resources. Oddly enough, the rest of the world is taking a different view, and for some obvious reasons.
As for the mantra of growth, Edward Abbey wrote that “We can see that the religion of endless growth–like any religion based on blind faith rather than reason–is a kind of mania, a form of lunacy, indeed a disease….Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.” Bill McKibben noted that “By the early twentieth century, increasing efficiency had become very nearly a religion, especially in the United States….”
I wish Jeff and other optimists only the best, but what I see everywhere I look is a world full of people, mostly on cruise control, aimed at consuming more and more per capita so long as we can continue to increase production, even if it means burning through hundreds of millions of years worth of fossil fuels in a few hundred years, increasing atmospheric CO2 and CH4 contents exponentially, until something truly catastrophic occurs to get the world’s attention.
As others have suggested, and I agree, it is going to take far more than screwing in some new light bulbs and going occasionally to farmers’ markets to make even a slight dent in the problem, though it is supposedly better than nothing. As Bill McKibben noted recently, “Our current economies are changing the physical world in horrifying ways.”
I suppose that memomachine would reply that that is just tough, especially for the losers. The winners will always be able to move upslope, away from rising sea levels, and to gated communities from the Hamptons to Sun Valley and Aspen, hiring Blackwater heros to guard their enclaves against the riotous barbarians that may gather outside their gates.
Thanks Gary, for expanding on your earlier thoughts. I so much agree with you. It comes down to simple maths. The planet can only give out so much. We are all going to suffer, whether behind the bars of our gilded prisons our outside banging on those gates. And it is going to happen sooner than we think. It has already started.
Speaking for myself, I must say fear is a huge motivator. When self-interest becomes threatened, as is starting to happen now, different internal forces get mobilized. That’s when personal behavior has a chance to change.
Kyle, I just found your last comment in the spam folder, again . . . Agree with you on timing, and the value of crisis as powerful behavioral change agents. This is not unlike in psychotherapy. People only come for help and are most amenable to change, when their lives derail and when they are in pain.
Right now, let’s face it, there is little reason for American people to change the way they live. Unless they start using their brain and connecting the dots, . . .
Regarding “memomachine”’s post #14:
Memomachine, I’ll repeat my earlier comment that capitalism is not a “type of government”, as you wrote in your earlier post. When American Heritage says “political system” after it says economic system, it must be using the word ‘political’ in the broad sense of that word, i.e., having to do with relationships and interactions among people. You’ll note that the American Heritage quote you included does not include the word “government”, which is the word you used in your earlier comment, and certainly did not define capitalism as a “type of government.”
Consider: If a democracy is a type of government AND capitalism is a type of government, which one do we have? Or are they identical? Or, are the words ‘democracy’ and ‘capitalism’ redundant to you? And also consider: If capitalism is a “type of government”, then how exactly would you characterize China or a number of other countries?
Clearly of course, in many cases and to some degree, economic systems and governmental systems interact and are interrelated, but they are also different. Any given democracy might be capitalistic, but it need not be. And, a country with a capitalistic economic system may well be a democracy, but it could also have a number of other types of governments.
In any case, I am trying to focus my time on ways to address global warming, so that will be it in terms of this topic for me. I hope the comments are helpful in some way.
Jeff, you’re addressing a person motivated by blind faith, and trying to use rational arguments. It doesn’t work that way.
Notice that I said “blind faith”. Faith when coupled with reason is entirely rational. Faith alone is not, and is blind, seeing nothing but the faith.
You can tell blind faith by the person’s appealing to abstract concepts rather than concrete things. If they speak of “the economy” or “science” or “technology” it’s likely to be blind faith. If they speak of “hydrogen cars” or “tariffs on carbon” then it’s still faith, but it’s not blind.
We can speak to people with different faiths to our own, but we cannot have useful conversations with people of blind faith. So don’t even bother.
Agree, Kyle on the ‘don’t bother’.
Maybe this crisis is part of the solution. It is exposing some of the inequalities that we in the west can be completely blind to. I noticed it in myself just the other week – I read about a woman in Delhi who was reducing her and her husbands meals to one per day due to the increase in food costs. Her husband worked as a labourer and received 50 rupees per day (about 1 euro/1.5 dollars). I was in Delhi a month ago and understood that there was a lot of poverty but I didn’t realise people were working for as little as that – in the capital of a relatively strong nation.
The folly of using corn to produce ethanol biofuel also helps to expose the stupidity behind some of the decisions. I calculated the other day that a relatively average car running on ethanol produced from corn would consume enough corn to feed a person for a day for each mile driven. I’m glad I don’t drive a car requiring me to think of that statistic.
It is difficult to see how enough change can be made to avert disaster. However, high fuel and food prices with relating conflicts and deaths will at least wake some people up and contribute to a possibility for change. We can only be the change we want to see, as Gandhi said.
Thank you. You are right, often times it takes a crisis for people to truly hear and see the reality. In this case unbearable inequalities between people. Again, thanks for sharing your story.
[…] 14, 2008 by lamarguerite From Gary Peters, more food for […]